The Iron Horse Stance

[Berserk]

Hey, gang. Has anybody used this stance? I got inspired after watching Jet Li's famous flick, Fearless.

Any input would be appreciated. I did find a video, which showed certain hand conditioning drills but I want to hear what you think of it, personally.

TIA.

[James M. Gray]

Berserk

Troy Price said when he worked for the State, that he stood in that stance behind his desk without a chair. He said what it is is that the frame holds the body up and you don't use any muscles or any thing else to hold you up.

[Berserk]

That's hardcore!

I can only hold the stance for one and half minutes, lol. I have never really practiced it regularly, so I don't know my true potential, yet. Will be doing this almost everyday from now on.

[Bart Scovill]

Kiba-dachi is really more about flexibility than strength. When you're not used to this stance, it's difficult to fully relax into the it, and you tend to use your muscles to hold the stance. But as Jonathan said, your frame will hold the stance if you trust yourself to sink into it, and have the flexibility to do so. That's why it's important to hold the stance to the point of exhaustion so when your muscles give out, your body will find the proper position. In the meantime, it does build up your leg muscles, which is never a bad thing either. If you do it after squats, you'll reach the point of exhaustion that much quicker.

It's an excellent lesson in why alignment is more important than muscle strength.

PS. I forgot, here's a video I did on this stance: Kiba-Dachi.

[Jonathan Forrester]

This is a standard in most Okinawan and Chinese styles but is common to most all of the martial arts. I know of two variants of the horse stance:

Iron Horse Stance (Kiba-dachi) - where both feet point forward
Sumo Stance (Shiko-dachi) - where both feet point outward at 45 degrees

This is a strong stance from either side and helps build strong leg muscles. The Kata "Naihanchi" is concentrates on this stance and Master Motobu indicated that this kata contained everything you needed to learn in karate. There is a great little "secret" to be able to stand in this stance for extended periods of time. (I don't feel like sharing it at this time though....)

[Berserk]

Iron Horse Stance (Kiba-dachi)

My instructor used to make us do this, from time to time. I'll practice this more often, form now on. Beats sitting at my computer and playing games all day long!

The problem is, I do heavy squats on Monday. I use a weight that I can do 3-5 reps with and no more. So, would doing the Iron Horse stance on Sunday and Tuesday be detrimental?

P.S. I believe you shared that 'secret' with me, months ago, Jonathan. ;-)

[Jonathan Forrester]

Ssssssshhhhhh - don't tell anybody.

[Julia]

How glad I am for this topic, as it addresses concern of mine I'm having for some time. I have a problem with these stances, that gets really annoying: because of my "funny" ankle condition, I can't even get into proper kiba-dachi stance - for me, it's like out of the question. However, a can stand in shiko-dachi for quite some time. My concern right now is that I hear now our association is "taking out" shiko-dachi as not being a "real shotokan stance". So, I'm a bit concerned, especially as my next exam kata is the Tekki Shodan (performed exclusively in this one stance). What I would really like to know - and so I'm seeking the knowledge of the "experienced ones" - is what is the difference between the two, as for stability, hip movements, etc.? Can one replace the other?

[Bart Scovill]

I love this question. I've trained in styles where shiko-dachi was the primary stance and others where kiba-dachi is the primary stance. Basically it comes down to heel and hip position. Kiba-dachi has good front to back stability. The heels support you to the front in kiba-dachi. Shiko-dachi provides good side mobility. Because your feet turn out, your hips are in a position to move side to side. Shiko-dachi also allows a much lower stance because of the hip position. To demonstrate to students, I'll have them stand in shiko-dachi and give them a slight push from the front. They always fall backwards because their heels aren't there to support them. I'll do it again with them in a strong kiba-dachi (outside of the feet straight ahead) and they are much more difficult to push over.

I did notice going from one style to the next, if I was used to kiba-dachi, shiko-dachi would bother my knees and vice versa.

[larry nicholson]

Hey Bart, How are you ? I will agree with ,your answer. I was sitting here.Going back and forth in these stances trying to figure out how to explain that without showing it.
I will say that one thing i have learned over ther years, is that i do think Sheiko dachi, although, a great training stance in itself, can decimate the knee joint over long periods of time.
I have also seen this stance used, by only turning the feet , from the kiba dachi position, to the sheiko dachi position, without widening , to get closer to the ground for control of an opponent, on the ground, say after a takedown. Trick is though and the hardest part for me, is that the back is straight up and down.

Julia, what funny , ankle thing, do you have going on that, made me chuckle this morning. But ,really in kiba not much stress is on the ankle. As if your toes are gripping . And feet are positioned right, even though your lower leg is in a slight angular position, your ankles should be in a straight line ,up the lower leg to the knee. Pulling with your toes,drive your hips forward,as if your going to suddenly jump, 50 feet acrossed the room. If alls lined up right, you should be able to sit down quite comfortably,in your own hips, Kinda. Oh, yeah. Your groin muscles, should also be tight, enough, to close off a kick. Have fun.

[James M. Gray]

Bart and Larry

All of this sounds good to me it works. When I go into them for practice I put both hands in from of my face about 10 inches away palms out almost touching middle finger and I focus on the spot between the fingers you will be able to see a finger nail where the void is. This helps me to stay in it longer. I have held this stance for a long time. In class they go into this stance and want to know if your legs burn? I say no if you do it right. When other drop out I just hold it that much longer.

[Julia]

Thank you, Sensei Bart, your explanation helped me a lot, and the video even more. Now I found a lot and I'm going through all of them :) Very good videos!

[Berserk]

Thanks, guys. Great responses.

Thanks for posting that video, by the way, Bart. Very nice!